Asia Mind Dynamics - Creating change that lasts

Aborigines, Malays, Chinese or Indians, even Arabs and Turkish, we are bonded to either having been in the same continents/cultural values or religion.

Hmmm... what about Danish and Brits that were here as well, for a long time?

When u said u respect differences in opinions because if u did, you wouldn't have written (unconciously) sentences like "LUCKILY, it remained an idea only." and "Now, the idea comes back with VENGEANCE." and worse you told me to CHANGE my belief, just because I saw segregating pools as a cultural issue apart from marketing strategy while u still prefer to look at it as a gender issue. Where's ur ability to see things from other people's view and how do u respect other people's opinions?

There are hotels in Turkey that segregate their pools and don't serve alcoholic beverages, even though Turkey is a secular country. And I believe there will be more (in Malaysia, in many other places), so maybe in the future you will have to ask about the pools (segregated or not) before you can check in.

I guess, I can conclude that you prefer the pools not segregated (everywhere in this world) because it's a discrimination to women. While I think that it's ok to have segregated pools in Malaysia (gender issue is out-dated) because I look at it from cultural differences. Fine, then.

Private activities doesn't mean private place.
It's like peeing in a public toilet.

It's true we can tolerate different cultures but Indians, Chinese, Malays, Johoreans, Kelantanese... we're still in the same group. I was talking about a culture from a different continent/religion. (Andreas: But then, - I wonder only, who came first to join the ranks? Orang Asli, Malays, Chinese and/ or Indians? Then, what was before all that - the Dutch and the Brits? Is there any "clean culture" in the world anyway? Isn't a hotchpotch what makes life exciting?)

Looking at it from business side, if segregating the pools makes the Arab tourists, who spend thousands of ringgit, happy, why should they worry about the western backpackers who spend so little here? (Andreas:The question only is - would Arabs really go to a 3 Star hotel, hehe.)

We're focusing on two different things here. I'm talking about Eastern and western, ur talking about men and women.

Men are not the only one who complain about women. You just have to mix around with more Malay women (Andreas: I do. I am even married to one :)) and you'll can see that many of them still prefer the conservative ways in certain things. (Andreas: You sure? I am not!. See, different opinions, and experiences)

For you, nudity might be a form of art and perhaps you won't forbid your 8-year old kid to watch skinflicks becoz you think that the more exposure, the less curiousity, the less sexual harrassment will be. (Andreas: I don't, but I talk to him about sex and everything related)

For me and I believe for many other Malaysians, we have certain limits you may find it unacceptable becoz you're not us (Andreas: Who is we in this context? It seems that you are going to look for external support (we), whenever you want to defend your opinion. What makes you do this?). We don't force women to grow up in the kitchen all the time (Andreas: Interesting statement - all the time?). There are women who go to the jungle to find some woods, or tap the rubber trees, drive a bus, etc. But when it comes to taking a bath (or swimming in the pool in modern days), this is considered as a more private activity (Andreas: It is mostly called public swimming pool, and not private - the private ones are in a house, mostly behind fences). Many of us (Andreas: Not the "US" that I do know, sorry to say so, Nizar!) still prefer the traditional way (except for those who have been polluted by foreign culture) (Andreas: Where is there pollution. Doesn't "foreign" culture contribute? ). Are you trying to question our culture (Andreas: Which culture? The culture of KL, Kelantan, Penang, Johor, or Malays, Indians, Chinese, Aborigines, "Others" and so on? Which culture are you talking about, And, do you know that Malaysia is one of the great places in the world that has been able to accommodate all kinds of cultres and that is what helped the country to obtain its respected position that it holds today? You know that there are plenty of examples in history and even today of countries that failed socially, politically and economically, because they closed their borders and their minds to prevent the influence of socalled foreign cultures.)

Backpackers always try to spend as less money as they can, usually they just go to a very chep motel with 4 double-deckers in a room, RM11 per se per night. It's the Arab tourists who spend more money when they come here, I'm talking about 5-digit money here (AGREE).

So if the hotels want to attract more Arab tourists rather than western tourists, it's their choice to make.

Like I said, if I was in Germany and people can do whatever they like in the swimming pool, then let them be. I won't say a word. I expect you to at least understand and respect other people's way of doing things (I DO, REALLY!).

The word 'freedom' means differently between Eastern and Western ppl. And so is 'justice'. Freedom in your country perhaps means total freedom, you can do anything u like without worrying what others will feel (NOT TRUE, BUT IT DEPENDS HOW YOU DEFINE FREEDOM. AND I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE AS MANY DEFINITIONS FOR FREEDOM IN THE WORLD AS THERE ARE PEOPLE - THAT IS THE POWER OF WORDS THAT ARE NOT DEFINED). You can even perhaps walk naked down the street (NOT TRUE). But here, and in many other places, it's so unbecoming.

You can blame 'restrictions' for the sexual crimes, at certain degree I agree with you on this but self-restriction, ability to control self-desire from doing something bad or provoking people to do something bad could be more effective.

I don't blame women (again this is typical perception you get about local men from the letters to editors sent by female chauvinists (HM - I WONDER HOW YOU KNOW THAT?) when they get raped. And I also don't judge based on gender.

When they (perhaps the men) decide to segregate the pool between men and women, why didn't you look at it from the viewpoint of a man who tries to protect women from some men who might harrass the women (IT IS A MAN PROBLEM - WHY NOT LOCKING MAN AWAY?)? A man who tries to make sure that women can have fun in the pool without being are googled at by some naughty men, being made sniper remarks, or whistled by them? A man who might feel guilty if something bad happens to the women? A man who thinks men are bad. Did you try seeing it from this angle? (SURE I DO, ALL THE TIME! - BUT I COME TO DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS THAN YOU - THAT IS THE FREEDOME TO DISAGREE)

Nizar, don't get upset. It is just that our opinions differ and THAT is the good part of humans. The ability to differ from each other!

Nizar, I was just wondering why men are the one that complain about women and how they look like and behave and women always complain that men don't see their point of view. There are plenty of newsletters to the editors, and stories around in the web. I know that you are aware of those as well.

Are women more tolerant of men, who also don't always know how to behave in public? The men who are googling at women, make sniper remarks, cat sounds and don't how to behave? Wouldn't it be nice to have a society where both parties can respect each other for what they want and how they are? I see the difference in Eastern and Western values, for sure, but I also see tendencies that more and more restrict the freedom to be for women.

I know you understand and if not now, that you will understand at a later stage.

I can ignore a couple making love at the beach if I was in Germany but I don't like it if they do it in my place.

I know NLP may not be something new for the Germans. There are many good things we Malaysians can learn from them but please remember that not everything your people do is suitable for Malaysians or eastern people, and vice versa.

I don't care if my Chinese neighbor wants to eat stray cats or dogs, as long as he doesn't make me eat one!

If you were summoned to coach an NLP training in Saudi Arabia, will you force the participants to sit men and women side by side? Aren't there women who feel more comfortable to be separated from men at certain occasions? What happen to your preach about 'empath' or seeing things from other people's perspectives? I'm a little offended by the way you understood my comment and then you TOLD me that 'you NEED TO change YOUR BELIEF'. How about me telling you that YOU NEED TO see the idea from a different view other than the typical western perception that segregation between men and women is an insult to the women? Have you ever asked the women in Terengganu?

I just think that we need to respect and accept differences in cultures. As much as I don't care why people are served porn movies at midnights in Germany, I think you too shouldn't make a fuss when my people consider kissing in public as taboo. You can't change people, you can only change yourself. So now I'm giving you NLP lesson, huh?

BTW, I DID mention that I PERSONALLY prefer the waterfalls to the pools because I think that pools are not so clean even though you can say they drain and change the water every week (I doubt so). I don't like it when you judge me based on your yardstick. I was not raised the way you were.

I don't have problems seeing women. I was just saying that there are local women who don't feel comfortable mixing with men in a public places especially the ones that they feel needs more privacy e.g.: bathroom (I know in the US, many universities provide bathrooms where male and femle students can take bath at the same open place, even naked...), or places where they will show more skins.

I think you just don't see it from the view of a muslim woman (Andreas comment: How many have you talked to and where? The ones that I know feel comfortable the way they are, and how it is, but it bugs them if male "misbehave" because something "strange" goes through males' minds). (Andreas: already this shows that there is an issue with regard to how you look or evaluate women, or not?)

Like you wrote in your post... the way you were brought up were different from the way Malaysians were. If I go to Germany and have to share the pool with a blonde girl, I can jump into the pool. If she is stark naked and I have some thinking that I would do more than just swimming... then I can choose to masturbate first before jumping into the pool, or I can go somewhere else, play tennis, etc.

Nizar, if you have problems in seeing women, then you need to change your belief, because most of the time, you cannot avoid seeing women in any situation. Be it in shopping malls, at the beach, or in swimming pools. And once you start segregating, where to put the limit?

And sure, western tourists go for 3 star hotels, especially backpackers.

I personallay agree with the idea of having segregated swimming pools in Malaysia. There are women who don't feel comfortable to share the pool with men.

I personally prefer the waterfalls to pools because God knows how many ppl have urinated in the pool.

When my friends and I went to Lata Kinjang (Kinjang Waterfalls) in Tapah, there were some girls playing in the water at one spot and they left when they saw us coming. But becoz we're gentlemen, we told them to stay so that we could have more pleasure... Haha, no... we changed to another spot so they could continue swimming at their 'territory'.
Perhaps another way of segregating the pool is by using schedule. That way it will be more economic but not so convenient for visitors. I don't think Western tourists would choose a 3-star hotel. I'm sure there's no wine or alcoholic beverages in that hotel.

One thing I don't agree is segregating customers in shopping malls (like in Kelantan) or segregating the buses (like in Iran). People don't show skins at both situations.

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